Comments are welcome on this blog, with little restriction and no requirement to register. However, all comments will be moderated with respect to a few rules, as follows:

All comments shall:
Be considerate of others
Be on topic
Not engage in personal insults
Not have any personal information
Lively debate and opposing opinions are welcome, but please behave courteously and responsibly.

Follow us at The Tucker Initiative on Facebook.

If you would like more information on incorporation issues, comment directly to the administrators, or to submit you own article for posting, use our email account at:


Tucker 2014 is the prime advocacy group for Tucker's incorporation. More information can be found at

Thank you for your interest in the City of Tucker.

Sunday, April 21, 2013

An Uncivil Exchange on the North Druid Hills Patch

On the North Druid Hills Patch the following exchange took place in a comments section that illustrates how not to behave.  This was between myself and another regular poster named Ralph, who is an ardent supporter of the LCA and their goal to incorporate the new City of Lakeside.  A controversy has raged as to just how far the Lakeside city limits should extend into the heart of the Tucker community.

The discussion centered on a statement made by Oliver Porter during the LCA informational meeting held April 18th, where he discussed the optimal size for a city.

Although I do not apologize for my comments, or the tone that I eventually assumed, I would offer that I normally try to stay out of the gutter with the likes of Ralph.  I make every attempt for my comments to be factual, intelligent, respectful and considerate.  I cannot say the same for Ralph.

The Oliver Porter audio file.


2:54 pm on Saturday, April 20, 2013
The most efficient cities have populations of from 60,000 to 110,000. Over 120,000 and efficiency falls. That means two cities would be better. One from North Druid Hills Road to Henderson Road including Evansdale and Plasantdade. And one from Henderson Roaad east to the Gwinnett County line and including Smokerise.


5:20 pm on Saturday, April 20, 2013
According to Oliver Porter at the LCA meeting April 18th, his analysis indicates the ideal size for a city is around 125,000, give or take. At that point the balance between revenue and the overall cost of services is at it most efficient. Which would lend a little credence to the suggestion for a City of Lavista, spanning from Druid Hills to Smoke Rise, paralleling Lavista Road, which has a population of around 129,000.


6:59 pm on Saturday, April 20, 2013
rwf - That's nt what he said. Either your hearing ur your memry is flawed. He said that 125,000 was t many. And in respnding t my questin, he said a city frm Druid Hills t Smkerise would be way to large.

Or there is a third possibility for your comment and that is that you are intentionally mistating what he said to further your own plan. But I would not suggest that. I think your just were have poor hearing or a worse memory.


7:01 pm on Saturday, April 20, 2013
Specifically, he said the ideal size would be 60,000. I amreally disappionted in you rwf for making such a false statement. I thought better of you than that.


11:30 pm on Saturday, April 20, 2013
Alrighty then! Let's go to the videotape! (I recorded the entire presentation.) Towards the end of Oliver Porter's presentation, at approximately 59:30 minutes in, he said, and I am quoting him directly -

"I've been asked the question frequently, 'What is the optimum size for a city?' There's a good range . . . a study done several years ago that showed the optimum size for a city was in the . . . around 125,000 . . . people. We're approaching that in Sandy Springs. It may be that range is plus or minus 25,000."

I'd be happy to send you, or post, the audio file for your listening pleasure, but 1) a 2 hour recording is pretty large, exceeding the email limit and 2) I have no earthly idea on how to do it.

And just so you know Ralph, I don't think of you at all.

Tom Doolittle

3 hours ago
Porter must be smarter than to simply state that there is an "optimum" or "ideal" (even "efficient") city of any sort--without CONTEX and/or QUALIFICATION. What the heck does "optimum" mean? If he did that during this meeting, I'm sure he'd correct or qualify himself if asked to now.
If "optimum" is such a panacea, why are there so many cities that don't exceed 60,000 or 50,000 or 40,000 or 30,000 or....
I will be reading and disecting Porters book. My guess is that he makes the point over and over and over that one persons city is not another's and cities exist in the eyes of their beholders, particularly where they have grown organically--and throwing around terms like "optimum" is fine for anything but actually planning something in earnest.


3 hours ago
rwf = More things nt true. If you didn't think of me at all yu wuld nt have made such an angry respnse.

Those peroids indicate wrds left ut frm the quote. Edited qute. I was there and heard what was said. 60,000. ver 125,000 to large. Live with it.


17 minutes ago
Angry Ralph? I thought I was being very pleasant, considering the circumstances. You may think you are representing the LCA's interests very well but cyber-bullying and temper tantrums will earn you little respect, here on Patch or anywhere else. You may stomp your feet and hold your breath till you are blue in the face, but that still doesn't make you right.

The periods are called 'Ellipsis' and are commonly used when quoting someone who has extended pauses in his sentences, or has inserted too many er's and uh's, as is the case here. I stand by my quote for its accuracy.

You have motivated me to find a way to make a part of Oliver Porter's presentation available to you. I've made available the last three minutes of his presentation at:

I hope you enjoy it.

Your ARE right in one thing though. I can no longer honestly state that I don't think of you at all. That is no longer true. But what I can now honestly state is that I think very little of you.


1 hour ago
r - I listened to your tape = and I remenber the other things he said, in response to the written responses. In his opinion as stated n the oveall contex was that for efficiency and responsessness, the best size would be 75,000 orless. He was very negative in response to my written question regarding the possibiliby of a city from Druid Hills to the Gwinnette County line including Smokerise. He said that would decrease the response time. He stated that considering efficiency and response , 75,000 or less would be a better size.

The issue here is what he said. I think you should listen to the tapes again yourself . You have not yet got the point he was trying to make.


1 minute ago
Ralph - You have in successive posts accused me of having flawed hearing, flawed memory, poor hearing or a worse memory, that I was intentionally misstating what was said to further my own plan, that I was making false statements, of making an angry response towards you and falsely editing a quote. I have proven beyond any doubt that my words were truthful, accurate and absolutely on point.

Your previous tone and your inability or unwillingness to admit that you were wrong or to apologize for your reckless, thoughtless and hurtful words proves all we need to know about the type of man you are. You have certainly earned my disrespect and the disrespect of all who are compelled to listen to your false arguments.


14 minutes ago
But, for what it's worth, I will try to respond to your latest claim. Your question was the 18th of 34 questions on the Hit Parade that followed Oliver Porter's presentation, and was the only question specific to a city encompassing the larger area. Mary Kay answered the question, not Oliver Porter, and it was her opinion that that city would be too large. Mr. Porter followed to say that you may want to consider a smaller city IF ONLY for the sake of responsiveness. That's it. He did not make any larger statement that 75,000 or less would be a better size. He never said 125,000 was too many. He never said a city from Druid Hills to Smoke Rise would be too large. He was NOT very negative in answering your question. He hardly answered it at all. Perhaps you need to find your own tape of the meeting.

Your selective memory and biased, unfocused, and mindless arguments are not doing you, or the LCA, any favors. And you are partially right - I have not yet got the point that YOU are trying to make. I, for one, understood Mr. Oliver perfectly.


  1. rfw lwft off the last post from the exchange:

    9:46 pm on Sunday, April 21, 2013

    r = I thought for a while that the idea of a city from Druid Hills Roard or even from the Atlanta City limits to Gwinnette County line, including Smokerise, but floating the idea and getting comments, including asking the question on the 18th and listening to the responses have decided it won't fly.
    Porter talked about efficiency but he also talked about a lot of other things in considering the size of a city and boundary locations.
    Your idea of the City of Lakeside is not going to work, largely because of the identity of the various communities involved, and their goals for becoming cities.
    Local contol, access to elected offocials and response time from officials, as well as communality of interestsand past history limit the size and proscribe the boundaries. Three city solution is the best for our area.

  2. Well, Ralph, you beat me to it. Actually I was going to wait until I received a public retraction of your words and/or an apology. I suppose that's not going to happen, as small of a man you are. At least you finally are demonstrating a bit more maturity than you've shown previously.

    To time to be civil in a heated discussion is not until after you've been shown up by an adversary, but at the start. There is nothing wrong with passion or with the positions you've taken, just your words and tone.