Scottdale

Why Scottdale?

When comparing the relative merits of the City of Briarcliff vs. the City (With No Name Yet) (as proposed by the LCA) one glaring difference is Briarcliff's inclusion of the Scottdale Community within its proposed city borders. On many of the comment threads on the Patch neighborhood news sites, the LCA's most vocal Champion, RandyRand, continuously and passionately berates the City of Briarcliff Initiative (COBI) for this decision. In general, he claims that because Scottdale is a 'SLUM', it will be a drag upon Briarcliff's city finances, will require a disproportionate share of police services, and will somehow depress property values throughout the new city. (I have included RandyRand's postings, along with other related postings from the Patch, at the end of this article.) I believe that everyone concerned about incorporation should therefore teach themselves a bit regarding Scottdale, as to be in a better position to understand the arguments.

Scottdale is clearly a challenged community, but is it a slum? I would say NO, it is not a slum, regardless of it current circumstances. I would offer that its best days are ahead of it, and maybe, just maybe, its inclusion in one of the proposed cities may just be just the spark it needs to take it there. From the Wikipedia article on Scottdale:

Demographics

As of the census of 2000, there were 9,803 people, 4,010 households, and 2,201 families residing in the CDP. The population density was 2,818.2 people per square mile (1,087.6/km²). There were 4,236 housing units at an average density of 1,217.8/sq mi (470.0/km²). The racial makeup of Scottdale was 88.10% Black, 8.57% White, 0.19% Native American, 2.60% Asian, 0.18% Pacific Islander, 1.70% from other races, and 2.65% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 3.53% of the population.

There were 4,010 households out of which 67.3% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 29.8% were married couples living together, 69.1% had a female householder with no husband present, and 45.1% were non-families. 18.5% of all households were made up of individuals and 5.5% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.44 and the average family size was 3.15.

In the CDP the population was spread out with 34.5% under the age of 18, 12.0% from 18 to 24, 39.3% from 25 to 44, 16.7% from 45 to 64, and 7.5% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 31 years. For every 100 females there were 90.9 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 64.4 males.

The median income for a household in the CDP was $18,731, and the median income for a family was $27,521. Males had a median income of $27,489 versus $21,813 for females. Theper capita income for the CDP was $24,262. About 54.24% of families and 76.4% of the population were below the poverty line, including 44.6% of those under age 18 and 32.3% of those age 65 or over.

(Comment: This data is from 2000, so the situation in Scottdale has almost certainly declined, given the current recession.)

History

Scottdale is named for Colonel George Washington Scott, who founded the Scottdale Cotton Mill in the late 1800s. Colonel Scott arrived in DeKalb County from Florida, where he had previously owned a plantation, served in the Confederate Army, and unsuccessfully run for governor. Col. Scott was also a benefactor of nearby Agnes Scott College. The Scottdale Cotton Mill development included the mill and nearby housing for workers. From the 1920s through the 1940s, Scottdale Manufacturing Company even supported a baseball team. The mill shut down in 1982, but many workers found jobs elsewhere in metro Atlanta. Philanthropist Tobie Grant donated several acres of property to disenfranchised, unemployed African-Americans and created a community known as Tobie Grant. This community still houses low-income African Americans to this day. Oak Forest Apartments was also opened under this theme in 1968. That's where I was raised. Saleem Cooke, April 19, 2013.

The commercial district in Scottdale is focused on East Ponce de Leon Avenue, which bisects the community from the southwest to the northeast. Your DeKalb Farmers Market, theHuddle House corporate headquarters and antique shops are located on this road, along with several auto body shops and industrial buildings. Steel LLC maintains a large steel fabrication and distribution facility in Scottdale, near the intersection of North Clarendon Avenue and East Ponce de Leon Avenue. Efforts to rehabilitate East Ponce de Leon Avenue commenced in 2007.

So, Yes, the numbers don't look all that good for Scottdale.  It is clearly a troubled community. The definition of 'Slum' from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:  a densely populated usually urban area marked by crowding, dirty run-down housing, poverty, and social disorganization. I suspect that the residents of Scottdale would very much resent being called a slum, and in truth, the community does not rise to this definition.  I am sure that Scottdale residents are proud of their community, and proud of its history. (As the historical center of the African-American community in DeKalb, Scottdale included Hamilton High School, the only public high school available to African-Americans resident in DeKalb prior to 1969. See articles regarding Hamilton High here and here.) I am also sure that many of Scottdale's residents are fiercely proud of their homes and committed to Scottdale's future.  

I have explored Scottdale through Google Maps and its Street View feature (All Hail Google!) There are many attractive homes that are well maintained that would fit comfortably anywhere in the City (With No Name Yet).  There are no decaying public housing projects.  There are no trash filled lots or trash on the streets.  There is no graffitti. Yes, there are some overgrown empty lots. Yes, there are some houses in severe disrepair, more than they would like, I'm sure. And yes, it has a relatively high crime rate. But, there is no crowding. There is no social disorganization. Scottdale is far from being a slum.  Let's stop referring to it that way.

Just Where IS Scottdale?

Following is a map of Scottdale and several pictures (taken from Google Street View) of a range of representative residential properties. The borders for Scottdale seem to vary from source to source, so this is my interpretation.  The Census Bureau CDP goes well north, to include the Valley Brook and McClendon neighborhoods, but I don't believe that is appropriate. Looking at the pictures, you can only conclude that there is a lot of good things happening in Scottdale, and that it has great potential. (Areas with no photos are mainly commercial or industrial.)

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The Comment Thread From the Patch:

This is a portion of the comment thread from an article posted to the North Druid Hills / Briarcliff Patch. You can read the original article and the complete comment thread here. The entire comment thread addressed multiple issues (as is usual) and is actually entertaining and informative. For my purposes here, I have selected only those postings relevant to the discussion on Scottdale. Enjoy!.

RandyRand July 9, 2013 at 05:31 pm

Who objectively believes Briarcliff-Scottdale is a “CLEAN” “community effort”? The history of Briarcliff-Scottdale is a tarnished record of civic group secrecy, infighting, creating new income taxes, multiple renaming efforts, leadership bumbling and requisite political abandonment. The truth is , this Briarcliff-Scottdale effort has been a disorganized mess for some time. It has been washed up and watered down two or three times now and has been its current version for 40 days without even one publicly open meeting. Why all the secrecy? Briarcliff-Scottdale preys on those misinformed wishful thinkers who believe the map they have offered has no significant territory overlap with the non cohesive Tucker cityhood groups. This is not CLEAN! Briarcliff-Scottdale does not offer our community something new, they offer our area the same thing we have with our current Dekalb County Leadership: secrecy, infighting, new taxes, and a bumbling mess!

Herman Lorenz July 9, 2013 at 05:43 pm

Sorry I haven't been able to comment about all of this stuff. Busy day.

Randy: I'm afraid I just don't understand your problem. We're having a public meeting on Valley Brook (near Scottdale!). I know it would be hard on you to come, but if you bring your car alarm, you'll probably be safe for a few minutes. and Tom: you might want to check with a REAL tax expert, but generally any 501-C-4 can "contribute" to another 501-C-4 organization without tax consequences. And many of them do that a lot -- to PTA's, Parks organizations, even Boy or Girl Scouts. It's not really that difficult to understand. And someone asked about annexations. Decatur and Atlanta have been talking about annexing additional area for 15 years. Decatur "discussed" it this year, last year, and the year before; and probably the 5 or 10 years before that. Their answer has always been they don't want more people because their school system would need to build another school. We didn't take up the question with them because of that. If they actually annex anything in the next year, then Briarcliff would be slightly smaller. End of story.

RandyRand July 10, 2013 at 10:11 am

I am not going away Roberto and neither are the very reasonable questions or concerns I have raised as a homeowner inside the COBI map.

Simple questions but still no answers: 1. Why Scottdale? Scottdale is an area with +10x crime rate and -4x home median home values when compared to my neighborhood. Since my neighbors and I would be paying disproportionately higher taxes for the services they consume at 10x rate: WHY? Having a COBI leader HERMAN, say our map is “CLEAN” doesn’t even come close to answering the question of Why!

Tracy White July 10, 2013 at 04:02 pm

The COBI proposal included all of DeKalb County inside 285, south and east of 85, that is not already part of an existing city.

All of it. Warts, castles, schools, hospitals and other non profits, all ethnicities and religions. All of this well defined geographic area. How does that inclusivity translate into any kind of an agenda?

RandyRand July 10, 2013 at 06:08 pm

We have "ALL of it" now Tracy! It is called Dekalb County.... and this is currently a well defined geographic area. Cityhood is NOT about recreating a mini Dekalb County. It is about being more local where an area having similar issues and concerns has an aggregated voice and its residents priorities are addressed in a lean and focused manner. Scottdale's priorities and issues as addressed by cityhood are simply not aligned with Oak Grove, Evansdale, Leafmore, or my areas priorities. Too many differing priorities IS the underlying problem we have in Dekalb County government today. Do the research for yourself: visit these sites http://web.co.dekalb.ga.us/DK_Police/pol-crimetrac.html or www.Zillow.com and compare your address or neighborhood with Scottdale. You will get the picture for yourself if you do!

RandyRand July 11, 2013 at 10:15 am

Newsydon, I realize that this debate requires critical thinking so it can be tough for people to the grasp the basic concept that many of (US) have choices. I and a few of my neighbors live in an area overlapped by all three maps. That means (WE), my neighbors and I have at least four choices on which, if, or how (WE) select to align in a cityhood effort. Perhaps other readers have two or three choices and some have no choice. I am already in the unincorporated Dekalb County map which has become more concerning to me, just as it is with thousands of other unincorporated homeowners. So you see Newsydon, if you are interested in cityhood, then you and I are both aligned on at least this priority or issue. I and many others are NOT interested in a city creation which is simply a smaller replica of the current Dekalb County situation. This is why WE are all examining the motivations, the process, the public communication, the map and the economics in determining a best fit for (US). I have made it clear, with facts and questions why I currently have concerns with the Briarcliff-Scottdale map and group actions. They included (US) in their map, it is up to them to demonstrate how they offer the best alignment because WE have other choices. Only they and not I have their answers, their reasons, and control of their process. Each of these groups through their efforts and deeds are responsible for creating and demonstrating alignment with (US). I am quite sure however, that name calling won’t be helpful in their effort!

Tom Doolittle July 11, 2013 at 11:39 am

Randy introduces at least one perpsective heretofore not expressed by anyone else that I've seen--certainly valid and thought provoking. 

He's the only one (on this board) that I've read who has taken issue with someone else's community being included in a city that he wants to be in--particularly on economic terms. Many people want their own area included in a map where they haven't been; many people don't want their own area included in a map they have been included in (the Tucker issue); some people don't want areas LEFT OUT of their map (another Tucker issue)--but I haven't seen anyone say they want someone else's area left out of THEIR preferred city. I'd like to know if anyone else has an area they don't want in a city that they are included in...and the reason.

Frannie D. July 11, 2013 at 12:39 pm

Ok, my 2 cents on the Scottdale issue: Randy is focusing on the short term tax benefits of excluding communities like Scottdale. But while that may be understandable in this current economy, that kind of thinking is short-sighted at best. A successful city sets out long term visions, and gradually works toward them. Those of us who have lived here a long time have watched various areas rise and fall in gentrification. Previously crime-ridden areas such as Decatur and Inman Park have cleaned up over the last 20 years as a result of neighborhood action. 

At the same time, many areas that used to be almost crime-free (such as N. Decatur and Tucker) are now experiencing a wave of crime. It's important to understand history, and think long-term. Community focus can and does change things--look at how far Decatur has come. Scottdale has incredible potential, as it's well located, historic, and contains the golden goose that we all love: the Farmers Market, a real community treasure on a national scale. (Even more so once they expand.) Can you say "tax dollars?" Cutting off a valid part of our community that contains such incredible potential -- just because of their current crime status -- is not smart planning. (It's non-planning. Reactionary.) Having them as part of the city will in fact help lift them up, just as we did with the once crime-ridden but now-gentrified Decatur. I want to support a city that is not afraid to be forward thinking and community-focused: Scottdale IS part of our community, like it or not, and we need to step up and lift that boat, not slash and burn. I personally could not vote to become part of a Lakeside-Tucker-OTP city. But that's my intown nature--if I wanted to let exclusivity and fear guide my principles, I'd relocate to the suburbs. I see serious long term potential within the entire proposed borders of Oak Grove-Briarcliff.

RandyRand July 11, 2013 at 05:56 pm

Frannie D., Is a new cityhood the only or best way to fix Scottdale’s issues? Scottdale is in the unincorporated Dekalb community today and will be for at minimum another 18 months unless annexed by either Clarkston or Decatur. If Scottdale is such a hidden gem why has annexation by Clarkson or Decatur not been considered? 18 Months is a whole lot of time! You and others are currently free to invest your time and your money to lift up and gentrify Scottdale or at the very least demonstrate some progress. Over the next 18 months feel free to use a portion of my current tax dollars to encourage Dekalb county police whom we are ALL currently paying to fix this areas crime problem. In the meantime explain to us all how our areas cityhood efforts should be about slum revitalization! Does a new city really need this huge burden? If after starting up a new city and if after becoming a financially stable city, the idea of annexation and revitalization becomes a priority for a new cities citizens, isn’t that something we could all vote on? The idea that within a cityhood’s’ initial infancy, currently stable areas should somehow be mandated into “gerrymandering” in a slums as potential gentrification projects seems to best align with the same kind thinking from the same people who concocted the Carbon Commuter Income Tax. Truthfully, this Scottdale inclusion smacks of an unspoken or hidden agenda by the COBI group. And while you have given you opinion we are still looking for theirs!

RandyRand July 11, 2013 at 06:22 pm

Frannie D., Is new cityhood the best way to fix Scottdale’s issues? Scottdale is in the unincorporated Dekalb community today and will be for at minimum another 18 months unless annexed by either Clarkston or Decatur. If Scottdale is such a hidden gem why has annexation by Clarkson or Decatur not been considered? 18 Months is a whole lot of time! You and others are currently free to invest your time and your money to lift up and gentrify Scottdale or at the very least demonstrate some progress. Over the next 18 months feel free to use a portion of my current tax dollars to encourage Dekalb county police whom we are ALL currently paying to fix this areas crime problem. In the meantime explain to us all how our areas cityhood efforts should be about slum revitalization! Does a new city really need this huge burden? If after starting up a new city and if after becoming a financially stable city, the idea of annexation and revitalization becomes a priority for a new cities citizens, isn’t that something we could all vote on? The idea that within a cityhood’s’ initial infancy, currently stable areas should somehow be mandated into “gerrymandering” in a slums as potential gentrification projects seems to best align with the same kind thinking from the same people who concocted the Carbon Commuter Income Tax. Truthfully, this Scottdale inclusion smacks of an unspoken or hidden agenda by the COBI group. And while you have given you opinion we are still looking for theirs!

RandyRand July 11, 2013 at 10:27 pm

Frannie D., Is adding Scottdale to a new city the only way or best way to fix its issues? Scottdale is in the unincorporated Dekalb community today and like other areas it will be for at unicorporated for a minimum of another 18 months unless annexed earlier by either Clarkston or Decatur. If Scottdale is such a hidden gem why has its annexation by Clarkson or Decatur not been considered? 18 Months is a whole lot of time! You and others are currently free to invest your time and your money to lift up and gentrify Scottdale or at the very least demonstrate some progress. Over the next 18 months feel free to use a portion of my current tax dollars to encourage Dekalb county police whom we are ALL currently paying to fix this areas crime problem. In the meantime explain to us all how our areas cityhood efforts should be about slum revitalization! Does a new city really need this huge burden? If after starting up a new city and if after becoming a financially stable city, the idea of annexation and revitalization becomes a priority for a new cities citizens, isn’t that something we could all vote on? The idea that within a cityhood’s’ initial infancy, currently stable areas should somehow be mandated into “gerrymandering” in a slums as potential gentrification projects seems to best align with the same kind thinking from the same people who concocted the Carbon Commuter Income Tax. Truthfully, this Scottdale inclusion smacks of an unspoken or hidden agenda by the COBI group. And while you have given your opinion Frannie D, we are all still looking for the COBI’s reasons!

RandyRand July 11, 2013 at 10:54 pm

Tom, just a couple of clarifications: First, I would characterize my questions to COBI about Scottdale as simply that, questions! I certainly have concerns based on facts, which I have clearly noted, but those concerns are not the end of the story, they are the beginning of discussion about Why? The level of my concern grows when it is ignored or minimized and left without explanation by the map makers.

I would suggest that others have expressed concerns regarding the inclusion of areas in "their" map or current group effort of choice. Certainly some people in both the LCA map and Briarcliff-Scottdale map have expressed that they don’t want to face any conflict with Tucker so they ask: why is LCA including areas outside 285? They believe this inside and outside 285 justification will avoid conflict based on misinformation and without knowing that Tucker ‘s map includes hundreds of homes located inside 285.

Tom Doolittle July 11, 2013 at 11:01 pm

Frannie D--great points. Now you're talking about something fundamental (vision) that has been left out of the entire city-making effort from the inception. What vision do we have that is distinct from something not possible without forming a city. It would certainly be a question that might help guide voters in a discussion such as Roberto suggested:

July 10, 2013 at 12:31 pm ... "Maybe a local Civic Association can host a panel discussion/debate and invite the two groups with the public attending to see for themselves how each group behaves, their professionalism, and their reponses to issues."

Tom Doolittle July 11, 2013 at 11:14 pm

OK Randy--I admit that I thought when you asked why a city-maker would choose to include a slum in their city map that you already had your own opinion of the idea....and you might have some ideas about the reasons behind it.

My bad.

Tom Doolittle July 11, 2013 at 11:17 pm

BTW--on Frannie D's point about redevelopment, there certainly would be lots of dough to make doing it. Hmmmm....

RandyRand July 12, 2013 at 07:47 am

Frannie D., Is adding the Scottdale area to a new city the only way or best way to fix its issues? Scottdale is in the unincorporated Dekalb community today and like other areas it will be unincorporated for a minimum of another 18 months unless annexed earlier by either Clarkston or Decatur. So if Scottdale is such a hidden gem why has its annexation by Clarkson or Decatur not been fast tracked? 18 Months is a good amount of time! You and others are currently free to invest your time and your money to lift up and gentrify Scottdale or at the very least demonstrate some progress toward your vision. Over the next 18 months feel free to use a portion of my current tax dollars to encourage Dekalb county police, whom we are all currently paying, to make headway and fix this areas crime problem. 

In the meantime, could you explain to us all how our areas cityhood efforts should be about Scottdale’s revitalization! Does a new city really need this initial burden? If after starting up a new city and if after becoming a financially stable city, the idea of annexations and area revitalization becomes a priority for a new cities citizens, isn’t that something we could all bring to a vote? The idea that within a cityhood’s’ initial infancy, currently stable areas should somehow be matched up by “gerrymandering” with economically negative or socially broken areas seems like a real stretch politically. The idea having new cities saddled with speculative gentrification projects seems to best align with the same kind thinking from the same people who concocted the Carbon Commuter Income Tax. Truthfully, this Scottdale inclusion while it is called vision by you Frannie, currently remains an unspoken or hidden agenda by the COBI group. And while you have given your opinion Frannie D, we are still looking for the COBI’s reasons!